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Dr. Jill Lepore on why the AI backlash is vital for the future

Decoder with Nilay Patel · with Dr. Jill Lepore · July 20, 2026 · 59 min

Summary

This episode argues that the pervasive quantification of human experience by AI and data-driven systems is fundamentally dehumanizing, leading to an "artificial state." This framework extends beyond just technology and impacts politics, governance, and even national identity. It emphasizes the critical need for a "backlash" and thoughtful engagement to safeguard human values against unchecked technological advancement.

Key takeaways

Themes

ai & automationfounder & leadership

Topics covered

artificial intelligence ethicsdata dehumanizationgovernance in the age of aitechlashfuture of nation-statehistorical patterns of technology

Episode description

Dr. Jill Lepore is one of the best writers there is at identifying institutional patterns in history, and Decoder is a show about systems and organization — so her new book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, is a perfect fit for the show. You build systems by measuring things — gathering information, quantifying it as data, and taking action on it. The book's big thesis is that this kind of systemic measurement is really a dehumanizing act, one that flattens humanity and human concerns into something, well, artificial. These artificial structures touch everything — not just in the more obvious places like in apps or AI, but all the way up to politics, governance, and the very future of the nation-state itself. Links: The Artificial State | The New Yorker ‘Terminator’ to tech titans: Jill Lepore on the ‘artificial state’ | Yale Univ. The failed ideas that drive Elon Musk | New York Times Sam Altman | The Joe Rogan Experience Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Frequently asked about this episode

What does this episode say about ai & automation?
Systems built on excessive measurement and data quantification lead to a dehumanizing 'artificial state,' flattening human complexity.
What does this episode say about founder & leadership?
The 'artificial state' transcends technology, influencing politics, governance, and the very structure of the nation-state.
What does this episode say about ai & automation?
Critical examination and resistance to rapid, unchecked technological advancement are vital for preserving human values and ensuring a desirable future.
What does this episode say about ai & automation?
Understanding historical patterns of measurement and control is crucial for evaluating the current impact of AI and data-driven systems.
What does this episode say about ai & automation?
The ideologies of influential tech leaders like Elon Musk and Sam Altman are shaping the "artificial state," necessitating public discourse and policy-making to counter potential negative implications.

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